All in with Chris Hayes, Transcript 03/26/15


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Hes knocking, hes asking to

be let in. Zero response from the copilot.

HAYES: The Germanwings crash becomes criminal. Mass murder now

suspected as cockpit audio suggests the co-pilot deliberately crashed into

the Alps. Well have the latest on the stunning developments from France.

Then, mapping out the Middle East after Saudi Arabia begins dropping

bombs on Yemen.

Plus, shades of Rodney King. A police beating caught on dash cam in

suburban Detroit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didnt do anything.

HAYES: The man in that video joins me tonight.

And it is a bathroom fad causing headaches for sewer systems across


(on camera): And you can see, those are all wipes, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wipes just get everywhere.

(voice-over): An ALL IN investigation into Americas newfound love

affair with moist personal wipes.

(on camera): Disgusting! That is so disgusting!

(voice-over): ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. Im Chris Hayes.

A stunning development today in the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525.

The co-pilots intention was, apparently, to, quote, “destroy the

aircraft.” That the assertion of the chief French prosecutor overseeing

the criminal investigation of the crash, Bryce Robin, who described often

in great detail what he says happened in the final 30 minutes of the

flight, based on the audio from the planes cockpit voice recorder and the

transcript of that audio.

Quoting “The New York Times” translation of todays press conference,

“During the first 20 minutes, the pilots talked normally,” Mr. Robin said,

saying they spoke in a cheerful and courteous way. “There is nothing

abnormal happening,” he said.

The pilot, whose name has not yet been released, was preparing a

standard landing plan for Dusseldorf and the pilot asked the co-pilot to

take over and sounds indicate that the pilot left the cabin and the cockpit

door closed.

“At this stage,” quoting again, “the co-pilot is in control alone,”

the prosecutor said. “It is when he is alone that the co-pilot manipulates

the flight monitoring system to activate the descent of the plane.” The

prosecutor said, “This action could only have been voluntary.”

And then later, “The captain is heard pleading to get back into the

cockpit, but the co-pilot, heard breathing normally until the plane

crashes, does not react. You can hear the commanding pilot ask for access

to the cockpit several times,” the prosecutor says. “He identifies

himself, but the co-pilot does not provide any answer.”

It should be noted that the Airbus 320 mechanism for the cockpit door

allowed someone inside the cockpit to lock the door in such a way that the

normal procedure for getting in from outside the cockpit is disabled for

five minutes, as depicted in the Airbus training video.

The video also shows an emergency procedure for gaining access to the

cockpit if the pilot is incapacitated.


NARRATOR: The captain moves the toggle switch to the lock position.

The open light remains extinguished. Now if we look at the code pad, the

red light is lit, confirming the door is locked.

Be careful, automatic door opening, the code pad, and the buzzer are

inhibited for five minutes. Obtaining no response, she decides to use the

emergency access procedure. On the code pad, she enters the emergency

code, then presses the hash key. This triggers the timer for 30 seconds.

The green light on the code pad flashes, indicating imminent unlocking.


HAYES: Just before the crash, passengers could be heard screaming,

according to the French prosecutor.

As noted by Lufthansas chief executive Carsten Spohr, quote, “When

one person is responsible for 150 lives, it is more than suicide.”

And of course, there is now heightened, intense scrutiny on the young

co-pilot who apparently brought the plane down on purpose.

His name, we learned today, is Andreas Lubitz and he had, according to

Lufthansa, passed medical and psychological tests.

Today, investigators searched his parents home for possible evidence.

And joining me now, NBC News correspondent Claudio Lavanga.

Claudio, what do we know about Mr. Lubitz? Is there any indication of

any possible motive?


problem, Chris. There is just none. This is a man that we understand,

especially from local reports, from a small town in Germany, that he had a

childhood dream and that was to fly. Since he was in elementary school, he

said that thats what he wanted to do. He worked hard to do it.

He started training at Lufthansa in 2008. He started as a flight

attendant and he just worked his way up to becoming what he just wanted to

become, a pilot. He just finally realized his dream about a year and a

half ago, when Germanwings, the budget airline from Lufthansa, gave him a

job as a co-pilot. Hes clocked 630 hours of flying.

This just sounds like someone whos realized his dream. So theres no

indication on why, at least on the professional level, why he would do

something like that.

On the personal level, as you said, he did pass all the psychological

tests. The person, the neighbors that were interviewed today from local

papers said he was a nice boy, and Im just quoting a local newspaper

there. They kept saying that this was his dream job.

We do have a bit of a record there that may explain he had some dark

side, if you may call it like that. About six years ago, he took six

months off his training because of a burnout syndrome. Some kind of

depression, but the authorities say that they may not build any link

between that, which was six years ago, and what he did on Tuesday.

Of course, theyre not leaving any stone unturned. They are looking

at his history, his background, they are interviewing the pilots that

worked with him in the last weeks and months, to see whether they have any

indications of any strange anomalies, any strange behavior, something he

might have told them that may just explain why he did that.

HAYES: NBC News correspondent, Claudio Lavanga, thank you, Claudio.

All right. Joining me now, Michael Goldfarb. Hes former FAA chief

of staff.

And, Michael, theres so much to get to here.



HAYES: So, maybe lets – before we get to the possible motivation

for this, or precedent for this, lets just talk for a second about the

cockpit door and protocol there. I mean, obviously, one of the big safety

concerns after 9/11 was the impregnability of the cockpit. And we did see

a real design shift and protocol shift, not just in the U.S. and around the

world, right, around making that cockpit as much as a fortress as possible.

GOLDFARB: Well, you know, in the United States, certainly, but some

places around the world, not quite as much. But the thinking, as you said,

after 9/11 was, we need to protect the cockpit from the cabin.

This turns that equation on its head. We may need to protect the

cabin from the cockpit. That fundamentally changes the security threat.

So, here we have a situation, and, you know, from what we know, the

voice recorder obviously, clearly, he intentionally did this. And then we

had data streaming that led us to understand exactly what he did.

I mean, he was a smart opportunist in that sense. Right after

cruising altitude, he probably either knew the captain would go to the

restroom or its pretty much standard practice. He took advantage of that.

And the Airbus plane has a flight management system, so it overrides pilot


Thats why that very unclear – that very puzzling descent that most

aviation experts couldnt figure out. He took it down within the speed and

within the speed, so the flight management system would not override it,

and he programmed to it 100 feet, because the flight management system will

not allow the Airbus 320 to go under that.

So, I mean, this was methodical. And had he not – had the captain

not left, he may have chosen another flight at a later date.

HAYES: So, heres another question about this. And maybe this is a

dumb question, but Ill ask anyway. Im a little unclear how based on the

streaming data plus the vocal recordings, they can be sure who is the pilot

and who is the co-pilot in this scenario.

GOLDFARB: Well, they probably know the voices of the two. So, you

know – theyre pretty – I mean, this was a stunning announcement. I

mean, to come out three days after –


GOLDFARB: – “The New York Times” report, I mean, normally these

speculative reports really do damage to investigations, because

investigators have to chase each new lead.

To have the German authorities come out and say, we know that he

brought the plane down, I mean, thats – they know that. They know the

voice profile.

So, thats not as surprising. But Ill tell you, Im not sure going

forward what we do to fix this. You know, theres the cosmetic. You know,

the whole notion of two people in the cockpit at any and all times, right?

So, if one leaves, you have a flight attendant that comes in. That

was primarily for medical reasons, if someone had a heart attack. Thats

why that was put in there.

So, now, we have airlines saying, tomorrow morning, were going to do

that. You know, thats not really sufficient.

And, Chris, heres why things dont change after the horrific year –

I mean, people are scared. I mean, statistics show otherwise, but theyre

on the edge of their seat.

But the regulators use those statistics and heres what they are: 1 in

25 million chances of being killed in a plane crash. That means if you got

in a plane every day for 365 years a day, it would be 63,000 years before

you would be involved. So, when they look at that, when the regulators,

FAA or otherwise – they say, you know, we cant put in major changes to

how we do business, because these accidents are so rare.

HAYES: Well, and one of the things, I think, to look for as this

investigation plays out is that in previous incidents in which theres

heavy suspicion that, indeed, it was a pilot murder/suicide, theres always

a certain degree to which its very hard to definitively ascertain why they

did it.


HAYES: So, we may not have – it feels like there should be some

satisfying diary entry somewhere, where we learn, but we may not.

GOLDFARB: And EgyptAir, there was a pilot suicide, and the Egyptians

still disagree with the NTSB and the State Department on the nature of that


HAYES: Michael Goldfarb, thank you. Always very informative. Really

appreciate it.

GOLDFARB: Thanks. Youre welcome.

HAYES: A police dash cam captures a very ugly scene in Michigan, as

white police officers pull a black man from his vehicle and beat him

bloody. Ill talk to the man you see there on the ground, being beaten,



HAYES: In February, longtime North Carolina basketball coach Dean

Smith passed away at the age of 83. But the love he had for his players

lives on. Coach Smith, through his trust, left $200 to every letterman,

that is players who played a certain amount of games, during his time as

head coach of the school. The example that made its way around the

Internet today was a letter addressed to former Carolina player, Dante


It reads in part, quote, “Enjoy a dinner out compliments of coach Dean

Smith. Enclosed is a check in the amount of $200.”

The trustee tells that the checks were sent out on Monday to

about 180 lettermen. Many of Dean Smiths players went on to have

successful NBA careers, including that guy, the man widely considered to be

the greatest basketball player, if not greatest athlete of all time.

In his 36 seasons as head coach, Dean Smith won 879 games, had 11

final four appearances, and two national championships. But one of the

things Ill always remember about Coach Smith is something he once told

writer John Feinstein about helping to de-segregate restaurants in North

Carolina in the late 50s. “You should never be proud of doing the right

thing. You should just do the right thing.”


HAYES: Protesters tonight are vowing to shut down the Detroit suburb

of Inkster after dash cam video emerges showing an African-American man

severely beaten by white police officers after a traffic stop.

Fifty-seven-year-old retired auto worker Floyd Dent who worked for

Ford for 37 years and who has no criminal history was driving in Inkster in

January when he was pulled over by police for a traffic violation, as seen

on this police dash cam video.

A warning: what your about to see is very disturbing.

As police approach Dents car, Dent opens the door, prompting an

officer to raise his weapon. After a brief exchange, during which officers

claim Dent appeared to be reaching for something in the vehicle and said to

them, quote, “Ill kill you”, another officer pulls the retired auto worker

out of the vehicle and pushes him to the ground. The first officer then

puts Dent in a choke hold, and then starts to punch him, repeatedly, in the

head, as the second officer struggles to put Dent in handcuffs.

In the video, you can see Dent being punched in the head 16 times. A

few minutes – moments later, more officers arrive on the scene, including

one who tases Dent in his thigh and stomach, as he is lying on the ground.

A police report indicates that Dent was also kicked at least twice during

his arrest.

Dent says he spent three days in the hospital, with injuries that

included broken ribs, an orbital fracture and blood on his brain. Police

claimed in their report that Dent was, quote, “very hostile” to officers on

the scene. They said they found crack cocaine beneath the passenger seat

of Dents car.

Police charged Dent with assault, resisting arrest, and possession of

cocaine. Dent says the drugs were planted. He says the hospital blood

test showed no drugs in his system, no weapons were found in his

possession, police had no audio record of his alleged threat to kill them,

and although the officer who put Dent in a choke hold and punched him

repeatedly says Dent bit him, that officer, William Melendez, indicated on

the police report that he was not injured and has no official record of

having been bitten. Melendez has been accused of impropriety in the past.


REPORTER: Officer Melendez, the one seen throwing the punches, is the

same officer while working as a Detroit police officer in 2003, was charged

by the U.S. attorneys office with planting evidence and falsifying

reports. A jury found Officer Melendez not guilty.


HAYES: After seeing the video, a judge threw out most of the charges

against Dent, though he still faces the drug charge. Yesterday, protesters

in Inkster, which is 73 percent African-American, rallied at the Inkster

police department and called for the officers involved to be fired.



This is blatant police brutality. Towns like Inkster, all over this

nation, are faced with the same problem. Inkster is no different than

Ferguson or Sanford or any of these other small towns, where police are

using an excessive uses of force.


HAYES: At a press conference today, city leaders urged patience. The

Inkster police have opened an investigation in the incident and the

Michigan state police are investigating as well. One officer has been

placed on desk duty.


VICKI YOST, INKSTER POLICE CHIEF: Were not afraid of following the

facts and well take appropriate action. But this – it needs to be

independent, it needs to be thorough, and it needs to be impartial. I

dont want to rush to any conclusions.


HAYES: Joining me now is Floyd Dent with his attorney, Gregory Rohl.

Mr. Dent, maybe Ill start by asking you, just what was happening

right before you got pulled over and did you have any sense of what was

coming when you pulled your car over?

FLOYD DENT: I was visiting a friend before I got pulled over.

HAYES: And the police tailed you and after a traffic – after a stop

sign, and you pulled over, they say that you were hostile, that you seemed

– that you said, “Im going to kill you.” Did that happen?

DENT: No, thats not true.

HAYES: What was going through your mind as you are on the ground,

being punched, repeatedly, by officers? What are they saying to you at

that point?

DENT: They wasnt say – all they was doing was punching me, telling

me to resist. I told them to stop choking me, I cant breathe. He just

kept on choking me.

HAYES: You said, “I cant breathe”?

DENT: Right, I told him – stop choking me, I cant breathe, you

know? And he continued are choking me. You know? And after about 15

seconds, I just gave up, you know? Because I couldnt – I was on my last

breath. You know? And thats when he let go.

HAYES: Do you remember being tased?

DENT: Yes, I remember being tased. I heard somebody in the

background saying, “Tase the MF.”

HAYES: Mr. Rohl, let me ask this question to you.

There is – I want to play some tape of a local affiliate that has an

angle of the video that they say suggests the possibility of an officer

planting the drugs in question, which is the contention that you have for

your client. Take a look at this footage for a moment.


REPORTER: In the video, the officer seen throwing the punches,

William Melendez, is seen pulling something from his pocket that looks like

a plastic baggy with something inside it. Melendez testified in court,

police found a baggy of crack cocaine under the passenger seat.


HAYES: Mr. Rohl, is it you and your clients contention that the

police planted the crack cocaine they say they found in the car?

GREGORY ROHL, ATTORNEY FOR FLOYD DENT: Chris, its pretty obvious, if

you look at the entirety of the tape, first of all, the officer who beat my

client, known as “Robocop”, did the initial inspection of the vehicle, you

can see him on tape go through the passenger compartment, where allegedly

the cocaine was found, and come out with his hands clear and clean of


And then he goes to the back of the car, when the state troopers leave

the scene, theres another officer who stepped in the middle of the camera,

and then you can see “Robocop” reach into his pocket, and sure enough,

start pulling some plastic bag out, the officer then steps in the camera

again, and all of a sudden, whoopty-doo, its right in front of him and he

starts field testing in it.

I guarantee you my clients fingerprints are nowhere on there. Were

submitting him for a polygraph on it to confirm it. And if it wasnt for

the history of this officer having done it in the past, and thank God for

that, we would be going for trial. Honestly, my client was offered a plea.

HAYES: Yes, he was offered a plea on the drug charge, which you have


ROHL: Yes, a plea of probation. He could have taken it and nothing

would have happened. And he said, quite honestly, an innocent man does not

plead guilty. Good for him.

HAYES: Just two clarifications, when you say “Robocop”, that was a

nickname for Officer Melendez in question.

ROHL: He calls himself that.

HAYES: He called himself that, right. And also, I should say, he was

acquitted, right? He was tried and acquitted of planting evidence. He was

formally accused –

ROHL: Hold on, he was acquitted of a criminal charge, Chris, but he

also has nine violations of civil rights, which they paid millions of

dollars in the city of Detroit based upon his prior actions.

HAYES: Floyd Dent and his attorney –

ROHL: Quite honestly –

HAYES: Please continue.

ROHL: Im sorry?

HAYES: Finish.

ROHL: Quite honestly, this man took the oath during our examination

and proudly indicated that he racially profiled my client, saw him as a

black man, driving a Cadillac, in a high-crime area of Inkster, and that

served as a proper basis for a pullover. It had nothing to do with the

stop sign. His testimony was very clear, he was proud of it, and said, I

was going to pull him over, no matter what.

HAYES: Mr. Dent, finally, I just want to get your sense of what you

want to see happen next.

DENT: Well, I would like to see the officer fired for what he done,

because he had done a terrible job. You know, he beat me, you know? And,

you know, I just cant – Im just lost for words right now.

ROHL: We want accountability is what we want. Thats all we want.

We want the system to work.

HAYES: Thank you, Mr. Dent and Mr. Rohl. Really appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

DENT: Thank you.

HAYES: All right, theres a story out of Georgia you probably havent

heard, but you probably would have heard if the man behind it was Muslim.

Ill explain, next.


HAYES: On November 4th, the FBI Explosive Unit was called to Vickery

Creek Park in Roswell, Georgia, to investigate a suspicious package. And

unlike other calls, this one was not a false alarm.


REPORTER: A mother and daughter hiking along Vickery Creek Trail

spotted a backpack a few feet off the beaten path and called 911. Roswell

police contacted Cobb Countys bomb squad and the FBI, once they took a

closer look at the backpack, which the FBI described as filled with bomb

components, including pipes. It had all the makings of an IED, an

improvised explosive device.


HAYES: The backpack wasnt just filled with the makings of two bombs.

Federal authorities found a Koran, a book titled “The Rape of Kuwait,” a t-

shirt, and location of Jewish centers in the area among other things.

But last week, the FBI found their man. And it wasnt a member of al

Qaeda or an ISIS cell that had come to Georgia, as one might think

examining the contents of the backpack. No, agents arrested 67-year-old

Georgia resident Michael Sibley after they say he confessed to leaving the

homemade bombs.

He told authorities he put the other items, including the Koran in the

backpack as well, and he purchased the t-shirt from a garage sale and wrote

a name, Mina Khodari in the backpack, because it looked foreign. He said

he put the Marcus Jewish community center location and Falcon schedule on

the backpack because he knew law enforcement would consider them soft


Sibley went on to tell the FBI that hes a patriot and he felt no one

was pay attention to what was going on in the world. And if he placed the

package in the Roswell park and people would finally get that this type of

activity could happen anywhere.

In other words, it appears, this man wanted to create the impression

of Islamic terrorism where there was actually none, so that people would

understand just how ubiquitous Islamic terrorism is, because some people

need demons to be afraid of, even if theyre imaginary.


HAYES: Saudi Arabia announced yesterday they are bombing Yemen, their

neighbor down here, along with a coalition of other Gulf states. Theyre

doing it as the country falls into a very, very scary civil war.

American personnel have been evacuated, NGOs are even leaving.

I wanted to bring in Ayman Mohyeldin who knows as much about the

region as anyone I know, to explain what is going on, because the region is

so engulfed right now in war, chaos, and strife, it can be extremely


So Ayman, its great to have you here.


HAYES: Obviously under sort of terrible circumstances.

So heres Yemen. And I find maps really useful, because you can

really sort of lose sight of wheres where, right?

Lets start with Yemen. Yemen is a very poor country and up until

around 2011, what was the relationship between Barack Obama, U.S. White

House and the Yemeni government?

MOHYELDIN: Well, with all U.S. administrations, really, not just

Barack Obama, Yemen was a cornerstone of counterterrorism operations. They

were under the rule of Ali Abdullah Saleh, who was by all measures, an

authoritarian ruler, an individual who was a strongman in his country, and

was a very close ally to the United States, sharing intelligence and pretty

much allowing the U.S. to carry out whatever counterterrorism operations

they did, including controversial drone strikes.

HAYES: Right. So, AQAP, which is al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula,

is operating out of Yemen. al Awlawki, the American cleric who went and

was killed by a drone strike, the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber trained

in Yemen.

MOHYELDIN: That is a side of Yemen that people obviously sometimes

focus on, that they definitely had a very robust terrorism hub, if you will

for drawing some of these extremists terrorists from around the world.

HAYES: So youve got this sort of classic deal with the devil. The

U.S. says to Sale, well look the other way while you put journalists in

jail and you repress people, just help us coordinate on counterterrorism.

Then the Arab Spring

happens. What happens to Saleh?

MOHYELDIN: Well, at that point, hes ousted from power. He tried to

hold on to power, but then ultimately was forced from power and we saw the

country begin to fracture, along all kinds of different lines. There was a

process that was put in place that brought into power the vice president.

He was supposed to bring in reforms.

But Yemen does have a part of the population that are Shias. And they

wanted a bigger say in the affairs of that country. They wanted to have a

political and economic part of the pie, so to speak. They werent getting

it as much as they wanted to. And that led to a military insurgency, a

rebellion, that brought to the scene, to the forefront of that, the Houthi


They had been around for a while, but really have 2011, gained a lot

of momentum on the ground.

HAYES: So into the sort of vortex of power, you have the Houthis who

are Shia, Sunni and Shia, are the sort of two dominant strains of Islam.

The Houthi Shia rebels basically say we do not want to be shut out of

government anymore, right. They start to take more and more territory.

We now have a situation in which they have managed to essentially

chase the Sunni president from Yemen. He landed today in Saudi Arabia.

In this context, why is Saudi Arabia going into Yemen?

MOHYELDIN: Well, first of all, look at where Yemen is. I mean,

strategically, its important. This right here, this little passageway

that leads to the Suez Canal is where so much of the worlds oil supply

flows from. Thats very strategically important for Saudi Arabia.

But more importantly, as we were talking, there is a certain part of

Yemen that is Shia. And Saudi Arabia is staunchly Sunni. It has very much

concern about

Iranian influence growing in the region. Iran is supporting the Houthi

rebels if not materialistically, at least morally and from a political

point of view, diplomatically, at least.

So Saudi Arabia wanted to make sure that doesnt happen. So they are

trying to make sure that the entire country does not fall to the Houthi

rebels and protect their president.

HAYES: So weve got just the broader context here and the thing that

everyone is talking about today when they talk about proxy wars.

You have the Sunni state of Saudi Arabia, which is the sort of pillar

of Sunni power in the region, you have the Islamic Republic of Iran, which

is the pillar of shia power. And in three different countries now in

Syria, in Iraq and in Yemen you have open violent warfare between Sunni and

Shia factions in which Iran is essetnially allegedly backing the Shia

factions and which now Saudi Arabia and other Sunni nations are backing the

Sunnis factions.

MOHYELDIN: Yeah, and one of the greatest ironies of what is going on

right now, the United States is involved in trying to defeat ISIS in Iraq.

HAYES: The Sunnis.

MOHYELDIN: Yeah, the Sunnis.

They are using Iranian-backed Shia militias on the ground as well as

the Iraqi army.

HAYES: So theyre bombing on the side of Iran in Iraq.


HAYES: And then down in Yemen, they are bombing against the Iranian-

backed Houthis.


HAYES: This is just a massively complicated and extremely violent and

somewhat bleak situation. Ayman Mohyeldin, thank you very much.

MOHYELDIN: my pleasure, chris.

HAYES: Back in a moment.



HAYES: Did you feel justice was served when General McGinnis got

sentenced to 40 years?

MEGAN HENNESSEY, HOUSE OF CARDS: Yes, as far as his crimes go, but

not for thousands of service –

HAYES: Im sorry to interrupt.

My producer is telling me that Jacqueline Sharp has called in, the

house majority whip.

Congresswoman, are you there?

JACQUELINE SHARP, HOUSE OF CARDS: Yes, Im here, Chris, and thank you

for taking my call.

HAYES: Thank you.


HAYES: That was a clip from my favorite episode of season 2 of House

of Cards.

All thirteen of season three are streaming now on Netflix.

To be honest, I havent watched any of them yet, because I have a


not to watch things Im not in, but that will not stop us from having the

creator of House of Cards back on the show tomorrow.

We will talk to Beau Willimon about a number of things, like whats up

with Doug Stamper, did that guy die or what, and whats more problematic

for Frank Underwood, his presidency or his marriage.

But mostly, well talk about what roles there are for me in season



HAYES: The fight over Arctic drilling is heating up in Seattle, and

if that sentence doesnt quite scan for you, let me explain.

As we first reported last week, commissioners from the Port of

Seattle, with little notice to the public, agreed in February to a the two-

year $13 million deal that paves the way for Royal Dutch Shell to use the

port as its base for Arctic drilling, which would take place thousands of

miles away off the coast of Alaska.

Although there would be no drilling in Seattle, Shell would keep and

service its rigs and equipment in the port.

Now, this is a big deal, and not just because it creates environmental

risks for Seattle itself. As outraged Seattle environmentalists have

pointed out, the deal means their city is poised to play a central role in

Shell kick-starting its

Arctic oil drilling efforts, which, after a series of setbacks, have been


since 2012, despite the company reportedly having spent more than $4

billion on the endeavor.

At the behest of Seattle Mayor, Ed Murray, and the City Council, the

Seattle Department of Planning and Development is now reviewing the

legitimacy of the deal.

And environmental groups have sued the port to block it.

But for now, the deal is moving forward.

On Tuesday, port commissioners upheld their decision to let the Arctic

drilling rigs dock at the port.

In an audio leaked to the Seattle newspaper, The Stranger, over the

weekend, port commissioner Bill Bryant dismissed components of the deal and

laughed about The Stranger awarding him five dead polar bears for

supporting him.

BILL BRYANT: Were going to move forward and were going to have

Shell there. The first drilling rig will arrive in early April and weve

been threatened with a flotilla of kayaks to block it. So, well see what


HAYES: On Monday, The Seattle Times newspaper editorialized in favor

of the port deal, writing that blocking those rigs at terminal 5 wouldnt

stop Arctic drilling, nor alter the course of climate change. And arguing

that if the deal is killed, Shell will simply move to another port.

And, if that argument sounds familiar, its because it is.

The people who want Shell in Seattle, that want Arctic drilling, heck,

the ones who want to see the Keystone pipeline built, they always say,

dont fight this

battle because its inevitable, its going to happen anyway.

But, the very fact this battle is being fought means its not

inevitable. As Seattle council member Mike OBrien pointed out on this show

last week, it is not at all clear that Shell has another good option as a

base of operations for Arctic


And, if it really doesnt matter if Shell or its allies get their way,

believe me, they would not be fighting so hard to win.



HOWARD STERN, THE HOWARD STERN SHOW: You dont carry baby wipes?


STERN: I do. Man, I carry them in my man purse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then it becomes –

STERN: Youve got a man purse? Get the baby wipes. The only thing

embarrassing with baby wipes is –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Theyre baby wipes.

STERN: Theyre baby wipes, and everyone knows why youre using them.


HAYES: Howard Stern has been on the baby wipe bandwagon for years,

baby wipes for his own personal use, even though hes not a baby.

Specifically, for his own personal use in the bathroom.

Hes not the only celebrity who likes the wipes.

Back in 2007, heres what actor Terrence Howard said was a deal

breaker for him in the romance department. Quote, “Toilet paper and no baby

wipes in her bathroom… If theyre using dry paper, they arent washing

all of themselves, its just unclean. So if I go inside a womans house and

see the toilet paper there, Ill explain this. And if she doesnt make the

judgment to baby wipes, Ill know shes not completely clean.”

The market for mature baby wipes has seen huge growth recently. A baby

wipe boom boom. The popularity of the so-called flushable wipes is having

some serious repercussions down the drain.


HAYES: For generations, parents have used baby wipes to, well, wipe

their babies. But theres a new growth market. Baby wipes for adults.


Its big business. Sales of personal wipes have doubled worldwide

since 2003.

In North America, sales have tripled. In 2013, nearly 20 billion wipes were

sold and 9 billion of them were in the moist toilet tissue category.

Many of those are marketed as flushable.

And they are. Pull the lever and it disappears. But it does go


Every bit of water, when it goes somewhere, it comes here.


HAYES: In New York City, where toilets are flushed 10 million times

every single day, whatever you send down the toilet ends up here, at one of

the citys 14 waste water treatment plants.

We visited the largest in North Brooklyn. This one facility deals with

hundreds of millions of gallons of raw sewage produced by over 1 million

New Yorkers every day.

BERARDI: So we are at the influent chamber for the New Town Creek

waste treatment plant. This is where the raw sewage from Brooklyn comes in

and this

is the first step in the treatment process.

HAYES: So the raw sewage comes in here, right? And then its first

step is – what is this?

BERARDI: So, this is the far screens. Its a mechanism to just

physically remove debris thats in sewage.

So, youll see in here a paper bag, a candy wrapper, a rubber ball.

And thats what we generally removed for years and years and years through

this process.

But, over the last few years, weve been just seeing more and more

baby wipes, to the point now where the vast majority of what gets removed

here are wipes.

HAYES: The amount of debris that workers sift out of New York sewage

has doubled in just the last six years, which the city says seems to

correspond with

the boom in flushable wipes.

You can see here, look at this, this is the machine. Now, the rake is

stopping stuff here. The machine comes, it grabs the stuff that has been


stopped, and you can see – thats – those are all wipes, right?

BERARDI: Wipes just get everywhere.

HAYES: Disgusting! That is so disgusting!

BERARDI: Many wipes get caught on the bars, but a lot of wipes

actually make it through, and then gum up the equipment in our plants, they

get stuck in gears, they get stuck in pump impellers.

New York City says it has spent more than $18 million on wipe-related

equipment issues just over the last five years. And every year, the city

fills up over twenty five hundred dumpsters full of debris, which ends up

in landfills. issues. The bulk of that debris right now, this stuff.

This is gross.

BERARDI: This is what got pulled out of sewage, and its just sitting

there, its not moving at all –

HAYES: And you can see its almost got this weird, almost like,

braiding to it.

BERARDI: Thats right, they do, among other things, knot up and it

makes them all the more difficult to rake and remove.

Its just – they just get into these big knots.

HAYES: Why is this more problematic for your system, the sewage

system, here and across the country than just toilet paper.

BERARDI: Toilet paper, you got to remember, its tree pulp, its

organic, its dissolved, it just falls apart. It gets absorbed in the

treatment process. We have a digestive system that breaks down organics.

These wet wipes are synthetic. Theyre plastic based. And so, they

dont break down in the treatment process. We have to physically remove

them, and, you know, thats an extra cost that we didnt anticipate years


HAYES: But, a lot of them are being advertised as flushable, right?


flushable to the extent theyll go down the your toilet, but they end up

somewhere, and thats here.

HAYES: Right, theyre flushable but they dont breakdownable.

BERARDI: You can flush a golf ball but itll end up here.

HAYES: The wipe industry has guidelines for what is flushable and

what is not. They blame whats happening in the pipes and sewage systems of

America on consumers flushing the non flushable wipes.

But for the people who work here, whatever the wipe had on the label,

its where it ends up thats the problem.

In the four-and-a-half years you have been here, have you seen an

increase in it?

MATT BERARDI, SEWAGE TREATMENT CENTER: Definitely more baby wipes.

HAYES: Just one of the rakes in this one facility fills up every half


All of those wipes have to be removed by hand.

Alright, so, show me how you do this here. I dont know if the camera

is capturing this, but there is [ bleep ] in there, okay?

BERADI: Believe me, some days we get a lot worse than that.

HAYES: Do you see this, baby wipe consumers of America? Do you see

what youre doing to Matt here?


HAYES: Joining me now, Dave Rousse, President of INDA, the

association of non woven fabrics industry, a trade association which

represents wipe manufacturers among other users of nonwoven fabrics.

Mr. Rousse, how did we get here, to this point, which nine billion

individual wipes for personal care or as alternatives to toilet paper are

be being sold in the U.S.

DAVE ROUSSE, PRESIDENT OF INDA: The flushable wipes category is

actually a relatively new category that has grown quite nicely in the last

few years, but overall, wipes have developed as a solution to many problems

beyond personal care.

And – to hard surface disinfecting, to skin care, disinfecting,

personal care.

HAYES: Sure, but lets talk about the flushable wipes.

Whats fascinating to me, here, is youve got this – youve got a

product that didnt exist before, now exists, is growing very rapidly. And,

has really changed consumer behavior.

My question is it chicken or egg question. Heres some group of people


said, you know what? Those baby wipes, I bet you we can get adults to use

those too. Or, did people start using it and you guys caught on and the

industry started catering to that need?

ROUSSE: More the later than the former. There were attempts to market

moist toilet tissue as toilet tissue that did not work, but there was never

the less a need out there among consumers to supplement toilet paper with

some moist apparatus to complete the function, and they were gravitating

toward baby wipes.

So, baby wipes were never designed for that purpose. Theyre designed

to be

rolled up in a disposable diaper and thrown in a trash can. Not to be


So, the wipes manufacturers went about engineering a substrate that

does behave properly in a sewage system and marketed as a flushable wipe.

HAYES: Okay, so this is key. What Im hearing from you, and you sound

slightly uncomfortable with the whole thing, although this persumably, this

is your job, this is what you guys are selling so theres the – you know,

were all adults here.

You basically found customers were on the sly using baby wipes and

then designers inside these companies thought, well, we have to actually

create a product thats for adults, went about trying to engineer products

that could be

flushed, hence the creation of these flushable wipes marketed to adults.

ROUSSE: Thats a simplified version but, basically accurate.

HAYES: Okay, so then, heres the question. The big question is, are

the flushable wipes actually flushable. And, they are flushable. They go

down the toilet. But do they actually break down the way toilet paper does.

I want to show you this little clip from Consumer Reports that did a

test on a few of them back in 2013.

Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Heres how easily regular toilet paper breaks

down in Consumer Reports test. Heres the same test with a flushable wipe.

Testers gave up after 10 minutes. Then they tried to break the wipes

down in a mixer. Another ten minutes in the mixer, and the wipes still

didnt break down.

Our advice? Dont flush flushable wipes.


HAYES: So, that what were hearing from municipal sewer departments

across the country, its what I heard from the deputy commissioner at the

New York City Department of Sanitation. Whats your response?

ROUSSE: Well, Im aware of that particular consumer products video.

We dont know what wipe they were using and certainly cannot validate

their testing methods.

But here is the real issue, Chris.

The problem that the sewage treatment districts are having around the

country are not caused by the wipes that are designed to be flushed,

marketed to be flushed, and pass the industry guidelines that determine


Those wipes are not causing the problem. And, those wipes represent

less than

10% of the wipes sold.

HAYES: But, how do you know that? How can you say that definitively?

How do you know that?

ROUSSE: Because, we have developed a set of flushability assessment

guidelines, scientifically, which measure seven different properties of

fabrics that are designed to disintegrate as they pass through the waste

water treatment system.

The test that consumer products showed you is just one of seven. Wipes

that are designed to be flushable have to pass all seven. If they fail one,

then theyre not considered to be flushable.

HAYES: So youre confident that the stuff thats being sold as

flushable, thats not the problem. The problem is on user error.

Basically, theres lots of people out there flushing wipes that are

not marketed or designed to be flushed.

ROUSSE: Thats essentially true. Thats essentially true.

The wipes that are flushable, that pass the industry guidelines, we

can vouch for as not causing damage to sewer systems.

But, thats a small percentage. The majority of the wipes being

flushed and causing a burden, and we acknowledge this, were never designed

to be flushed, were never marketed to be flushed, but are flushed anyway

because of the way theyre used, or where theyre used.

If theyre used in a bathroom setting, they are often times disposed

of in a toilet when they shouldnt be.

Were doing something about that, Chris.

HAYES: Yeah, well, youre partnering with some municipalities to

tackle this problem.

We might see, I guess, an education campaign for people. Dont be

flushing your wipes down the toilet if theyre not flushable.

ROUSSE: Yes. Were partnering with four of the largest water and

waste water associations in the both North America and Canada. And we have

a collaborative process going on thats gone on for about a year and its

making great progress in defining and further defining flushability, the

properties of flushability that they can agree to.

But also going beyond that, and developing a code of practice with the

proper labeling of all wipes if theyre flushable or not. And, if theyre

not flushable, our do not flush sticker, or do not flush logo, a symbol to

indicate to the consumer not to flush that product.

HAYES: Never let it be said the Association of Nonwoven Fabrics

Industry is not proactive in tackling the problem.

David Rousse, President of INDA, thank you so much for your time.

ROUSSE: Thank you.

HAYES: We performed an experiment in the office today because well,


segment wasnt long enough.

After the makers of Cotonelle flushable wipes, Kimberly Clark e-mailed


this morning to assure us their flushable products are indeed flushable.

They asked us to see for ourselves by putting a wipe in a dish of

water, letting it soak for one hour to simulate a residence time in a home

drain line after flushing, and then removing the wipe. The wipes will

literally fall apart when picked up.

So, we did. And for good measure we put in toilet paper and a

different brand of flushable wipes, Charmin, and finally Kimberly Clarks

Cotonelle flushables. Then, with cameras rolling for posterity, we left

them alone as instructed for one full hour.

When the time is up, the toilet paper did literally fall apart. The

Charmin partially fell apart, but parts remained sturdy. Well, the

Cottonelle fared much better, though it needed a little tearing to come


Bottom line, TP is still tops.

That is All In for this evening.

I made it through the whole time without laughing.

The Rachel Maddow Show starts right now.

Good evening, Rachel.




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How to Choose a Toilet Seat
How to Choose a Toilet SeatBath Royale's Premium and Superior models are made of polypropylene, a softer plastic that is lighter and more flexible than other toilet seat materials. It's beautiful, high-gloss finish will last for years with proper care and cleaning, but scratches relatively easily (avoid abrasives and hard sharp objects). Polypropylene is softer and warmer to touch than painted wood or Eurocast . Eurocast - Bath Royale's MasterSuite seats are made of Eurocast , a high-tech polymer plastic that is extremely durable and scratch resistant. Eurocast is heavier, harder and stiffer than polypropylene. Eurocast is cooler to touch than polypropylene and breathes better against the skin, which may be preferred in warmer, humid climates or for people who spend a lot of time on the toilet. MasterSuite bumpers are rubberized (slip-resistant) and strategically placed for stability. For those who are above average weight and like to sit (and move around) on the closed cover, MasterSuite is the best choice.— — — — — —if men has to put down the toilet seat for women, shouldn't women have to put it up for men?We keep the toilet seat down because both men and women poop sitting down— — — — — —How to quickly warm up a toilet seatThe ultimate solution for this is a electric bidet toilet seat. It's awesome and reduce the using of toilet tissue paper as well as your cost— — — — — —Leaving the toilet seat up, really whats the big deal?What is the big deal about having to put the toilet seat down? You put it up there, you should put it down— — — — — —If your toilet seat could talk what would it say?it may be much extra complicated if the rest room seat became a mobius strip. There could be in basic terms one ingredient. it may additionally be uncomfortable because it may be impossible to discern which ingredient is the splendid and it quite is the backside. Is it up or is it down. How can we probably take factors if there is in basic terms one ingredient? Kirby might desire to get a grip. (Kirby grip = Bobby pin.) undesirable humorous tale i understand, whether it relatively is not any humorous tale insulting someones dad and mom like that. it relatively is downright incorrect!— — — — — —Why is it that the women that insist on NOT sitting on the the toilet seat?excellent point. they are so afraid of touching a dirt hadle.that they dont flush.ewww. use your foot.and put toilet paper down. grrr— — — — — —Are Toilet Seat sizes different internationally?I believe they are making them 3 feet around for overweight Americans these days, but everyone else seems to use the same size— — — — — —could i have caught gonorrhea from a toilet seat?no,becouse if u dont sex with gonorea person the disease not get u— — — — — —Why do women insist that men put the toilet seat down?why do men insist on leaving the toilet seat up? although you make a minor case for yourself - it's still common courtesy to put it down because that's where it belongs. kids and women both sit - and men sit 1/3 of the time, so put it down already!— — — — — —My toilet seat is messed up?no sounds like your toilet seat is loose or broken, you can buy a new toilet seat for like $15 at wal mart real easy to change— — — — — —Why can't women put the toilet seat up when they finish in the bathroom?Etiquette AND respect shows that you let the toilet seat down for the next person. Sorry for lame question my account was suspended DATHIP: 1,301 pts and i am very upset— — — — — —I cant get my broken toilet seat off?Been there and had to make two trips to the hardware store to buy two pairs of Vise Grips to solve it. The hardware is usually in an almost impossible place to reach and requires the dexterity of a rhesus monkey in order to get a grip on it. I've had success with this problem using two sets of locking pliers because then you can concentrate on turning the mangled nut and not worry so much about keeping the pliers on them. Go very carefully with any type of saw as a toilet is basically a very large porcelain teacup and quite easy to break. Another solution would be to drill the bolts out from above. Start with a small drill bit and work your way up to a larger one. The bolts are made of polyester or nylon and quite soft, but again, you have to be careful not to damage the porcelain because it is very thin where the seat bolts in. If you are easily frustrated, or it's too late for that, maybe take a break until you can do this when calm because it's very easy to break or crack the toilet if you get overzealous. I do not mind complicated, difficult projects, but when simple ones become something other than easy, like a stuck toilet seat or an oil filter that wo not budge, then it can be extremely frustrating. And if you have someone at your house who offers criticism or even an opinion, it can be even more so. Try two sets of Vise Grips, but do not rule out the monkey.
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